London Carpenters v Joyners 1632

Carpenters drawing
Carpenters’ Company records, 1573

while in England, a few times in conversation I mentioned a well-known court record, attempting to resolve a dispute between the Carpenters’ Company and the Joiners’ Company. The City Aldermen issued a decision in 1632 that outlined who-makes-what. I first heard it referenced in Benno Forman’s work I think; but I found a lengthy (full length?) version in a history of the Carpenters’ Company. here’s what I have. Typos are mine.


the source is B. Jupp, An Historical Account of the Worshipful Company of Carpenters, (London, Pickering & Chatto, 1887) appendices B and C, pp. 295-302

September 1632…Committees formerly appointed to heare the differences between the Company of Carpenters and Company of Joyners London did deliver into this Court a Reporte in writeing…

According to an Order of this Honoble Court of the last day of May…we have called before us as well the Mr and Wardens and others of the Chiefe of the Company of Carpenters as the Mr Wardens and others of the Chiefe of the Company of Joyners and diverse tymes heard the matters in difference betweene the said Companyes and the reasons and Allegacons on either side produced And doe Certifye to this Honoble Court our opinions concerning the same as hereunder followeth vizt

That these workes next following doe pperly belong to the Joyners

  1. Impris all sorts of Bedsteads whatsoever (onlie except Boarded Bedsteads and nayled together)
  1. Item all sorts of Chayres and stooles which are made with mortesses or tennants
  1. Item all tables of Wainscoate Wallnutt or other Stuffe glewed with frames mortesses or tennants
  1. Item all sorts of formes framed made of boards with the sides pinned or glewed
  1. Item all sorts of Chests being framed duftalled pynned or Glued
  1. Item all sorts of Cabinetts or Boxes duftalled pynned glued or Joyned
  1. Item all Sorte of Cupboards framed duftalled pynned or glued
  1. Item all Sorte of presses for wearinge apparell Mercers Silkmen Haberdashers Gouldsmiths Millenors or Napkin presses being pannelled duftalled pynned or Glued
  1. Item all Sorts of Wainscott and sealing of Howses and setling made by the use of Two Iages (PF:gauges)
  1. Item all Sorts of Shopp Windows that are made for ornament or beautie which cannott bee made without Glew
  1. Item all Sorts of Doores framed pannelled or Glued
  1. Item all hatches iaged framed or Glued
  1. Item all pewes pulpitts and seates with the Deskes belonging to them framed pannelled or Glued
  1. Item all Sorts of frames upon Stalls being framed or Glued
  1. Item all frames for picturs Latesses for Scrivenors or the Like
  1. Item all lyning of Walls or frering for Wainscott
  1. Item all signe boards of Wainscott or carved
  1. Item all worke whatsoever already invented or that hereafter shall bee invented being made by one or two iages with the use of all manner of nayles
  1. Item all carved workes either raised or Cutt through or sunck in with the grounde taken out being wrought and cutt with carving Tooles without the use of Plaines
  1. That all Coffins made of Wainscott but if they bee made of other woode wee conceive fitt that the making thereof be left indifferent either to the Joyners or Carpenters

And these workes following doe properlie belong to the Carpenter

  1. Imprimis all Drapers Tables, all Tables for Tavernes Victuallers Chandlers Compting house Tables and all other Tables made of Deale Elme Oake Beeche or other woode nayled together without Glue except all sorts of Tables either nayled framed or glued being moveable
  1. Item all Sesterne Stooles washing Stooles bucking Stooles and all other Stooles whatsoever that are to be headed with Oake Elme Beeche or Deale and footed with square or round feete Except all framed stooles glued or pinned
  1. Item all sortes of frames [forms?] made of Elme Oake beeche or deale heads with Square or round feete or with feete of Boards or planks with sides of boards to bee nayled or braded soe as they not bee turned feete
  1. Item the Laying of all fflowers of Elme or Oake except such floores of Elme or Oake as are grobed (PF: grooved) which wee conceive properly to belong to the Joyners and if the floore bee of Deale wee conceive fitt that the workmr be left at Liberty to make choyce whether he will have a Carpenter or Joyner to lay the same
  1. Item the dividing of ware-houses and Chambers and other roomes unwainscotted and unpannelled with slitt or whole deales or any other materials Wainscott excepted and except all pticons grooved glued battened or framed
  1. Item the Shelving of all Roomes unwainscotted and unpannelled with Seates and bracketts except worke in Studdies which wee conceive fitt to bee left indifferent to both Companies
  1. Item all Signe Boards not made of Wainscott not glued or carved
  1. Item we conceive fitt that the setting up of all Pillars or ballasters for lights in a particon of what wood soever if the particon be made by the Carpenters doe belong to them but if the particon bee of the Joyners making them do belong to them
  1. Item all Galleries in Churches and other places unlesse of wainscott or pannelled or Carved
  1. Item the shelving in a Kitchen with Racks for Spitts and other Racks for hanging upp of furniture except all peeles
  1. Item the laying of plates and floores for pewes in Churches if they be Laid with Oake or Elme but if with deale the the worke mr to bee at his Choise whether he will have a Carpenter or Joyner to lay them
  1. Item all frames of Skreenes for halls or other Roomes not made of wainscott glued carved or pannelled
  1. And lastly wee think fitt that the Iage be indifferently used by the Carpenters soe as they use the same in the making and perfecting such worke only as before expressed to belong unto them and not otherwise all wch nevertheless wee leave to grave Judgements of this Honoble Court

the humble Peticon of the Mr and Wardens of the Company of Carpenters London…

May it please your honor and worpps to be informed by us…that wee conceive…That theis workes hereafter following doe properly belong unto the Company of Carpenters and not any wayes unto the Company of Joyners which are not formerly expressed in the reporte

Imprimis the building erecting and repairing of all manner of howses & edifices whatsoever of any kinde of timber whatsoever

Item the framing and setting upp of all manner of timber windowes that stand or are to stande in howses built of stone brick or timber.

Item the making and framing of all manner of staires that are to be done of timber board or plancks

Item the making of all manner of penthowses

Item the making and setting up of all manner of postes and seates at gates or Dores

Item the making of cases and plancks for Cellar Dores

Item the making of bulkes or stalles

Item ythe making of all cases for the enclosinge of cesternes

Item the making and setting up of all manner of sheds and hovells

Item the layeing of joysts and planking of stables – And making of racks and mangers

Item the boarding and weatherboarding of howses shedds and hovells

Item the making of all manner of signepostes

Item the making framing and setting upp of postes railes and ballesters in gardens, Leades betwixt houses or elsewhere

Item the making of all mantletrees tassels and footepaces of timber

Item the making of all manner of pales

Item the making of Wharves Camshedds Cranes & bridges of timber and piling and planckinge of foundacons for Wharves and Bridges

Item the makinge of ladders stocks cages and whipping postes

Item the making of poncoiloises

Item the making of frames and stocks for bells and making of bellwheeles

Item the making of all manner of presses made of timber or plancke for Clothworkers Hottpressers Chandlers or any other the like

Item the making of all manner of traughts (PF: troughs?) for Bakers or other professions or for conveyance of water and all manner of truncks for bringing in of light into mens howses shopps or warehouses as also the making of all manner of truncks for Jackwaights or conveyance of water

Item the making of porches and making of lattices and barrs for Taverns and other victualling howses

Item the making of banquetting howses and Arbours of timber or boardes and postes and seates in gardens

Item all manner of or Turretts or Lanthornes to bee sett on Churches Steeples Halls or elsewhere being made of timber

Item the setting up of all Hattmakers plancks

Item the makng and layeing of all manner of beare Joysts Stillimgs & Scantlyngs for Vinteners Brewhouses Victualling howses and in or for anye other howses whatsoever

All which workes wee humblie desire to be allowed unto us the Carpenters as aforesaid being meerly Carpenters worke and done in his mats worke in his howses at Westmr and elsewhere by his mats Carpenter And wee are still charged for the working and pforming thereof and not the Joyners

The Company of Carpenters humbly desire this honorable Court that theis Artickles reported for the Company of Joyners may be altered and qualified for the reasons hereunder and before mentioned vizt:

To the tenth artickle reported wee answere that all Shopwindowes have alwayes belonged unto the Carpenters (except of waynscott) and not unto the Joyners. To the eleaventh that all sortes of Dores whether battoned or unbattoned (except Dores made of waynscott) belonge to the Carpenters and not the the Joyners. To the twelveth that all hatches (except made of waynscott) belong to the Carpenters and not to the Joyners. To the sixteenth that all furring of walls and flowers belonge to the Carpenters. To the eighteenth there is almost noe carpenters worke to be done but they may and doe use the Iage and nailes both in invented and to be invented which being allowed to the Joyner they will doe any Carpenters worke. And therefore wee desire that that article maie be soe qualified & explaned that the Joyner shall not intermeddle in the Carpenters worke. To the nyneteenth the Carpenters saie that they have alwaies used to have the Cutting of postes at Dores, and for staires and to stand in gardens or grassplotts the cutting of ballesters hances tafferells pendants and piramides and the Joyners have not done the same except they be of wainscott.

Also for the Carpenters to be altered for the reasons followinge in theis artickles in the reporte

To the first all tables in that artickle are moveable (and the word except nailed) to be left out for wee cann make none of them without nailes. To the second and third wee cannott make bucking stooles cesterne stooles washing stooles nor formes with square feet but they must be framed and pynned together with pynns which is excepted against the Carpenters. To the fourth the layeng of flowers with oake elme boards or any other boards whether grooved drawen or layed otherwise is Carpenters worke and have ever byn layd by the Carpenter. To the ninth galleries in Churches or elsewhere cannott be made without groovings and being pannelled and the postes to be cutt by the Carpenter. To the tenth all peeles not made of waynskott have alwayes belonged unto the Carpenters. To the eleaventh the layeing of all plates & flowers in Churches of what wood soever doth belonge to the Carpenters. To the twelveth skreenes in halls or elsewhere cannott be made without grooving and pannelling and glueing of some pannells and yett have ever byn made by the Carpenters as witness the making of all ancient skreenes.

symmetry schm-metry

I can usually swing with some general symmetry, or “approximate symmetry” as I often call it. This chest of drawers I’ve been building just fooled me, almost knocked me off my feet. I knew it was 2 different designs on the drawer fronts, but for some stupid reason I expected the carving on each drawer front to be symmetrical left-to-right. What was I thinking?

here’s the original – I didn’t even notice how random it is until I began to lay it out today.

full drawer fronts


Here’s a detail of both, one half each.



England 2015

england 1

I’m back from teaching two classes with the New English Workshop. It was my first trip to England to do woodworking, my previous visits had been for furniture study. It’s an amazing place, a rural little island filled with hobbits and badgers and twitchers and train spotters.

The classes were held at two colleges, my first at Warwick College in Royal Leamington Spa, Warwickshire. Jamie Ward of the College was very helpful and the students there were quite flexible as we worked out the kinks. The first of which was some oak logs that looked like bad firewood. Poor Paul Mayon – he picked me up the first morning, brought me to the school, and we’d known each other for all of 20 minutes when I was telling him that the oak bolts they had were next to useless. Undaunted, Paul trucked off in his typically British tiny car and bought a new section of giant oak (2 really, the 2nd arrived the next day.) installed into Paul’s car with a forklift, I wasn’t sure it would ever come out. Paul’s car was riding low, for a 2-plus hour drive. Meanwhile the students dove in & split what we had so we could get started at least. They were great.

hewing week 1

Our class was at one end of the room, while Tom Fidgen’s was at the other end. It was diffuse porous vs ring porous (cherry v oak) all week. You could hear our shavings hit the floor, while theirs floated down to the bottom.

caught among the ring porous
Tom Fidgen scurrying back to diffuse porous land

Lots of camaraderie in the evenings, we even had a token American who had been traded to the RAF…

Boxes got made, carving patterns all over the place. Tricia was adamant that she would finish her box, I think her first woodworking project.

Tricia got a photo, so that means it must have happened

The English oak,which by habit I kept calling white oak, was different than our white oak. I know it’s sacrilege to say it, but it felt lighter weight, a bit softer, and certainly easier to split. Even the better logs had knots in them and we were able to split right through them like I never can in American white oak (Quercia alba)

On the weekend, I met up w Mr & Mrs Underhill of Graham, NC, who were there for Roy to teach week 2 in Leamington. We had dinner one night, then the old switcheroo was scheduled for that Saturday – Paul was bringing Chris Schwarz who had been teaching down in Somerset up to Leamington, then turning around to take me down to Zummerzet so I could do week 2 there at Bridgwater College. A too-short round-table lunch was had by all before we headed south…the only other times Roy, Chris & I had all been together had been WIA events, in which case we never saw each other. Hand tool freaks unite!


Bridgwater also boasted a great & helpful staff…and a group of students who were serious about carved oak. Ringers Jon Bayes and Richard Francis represented England well… I barely had to teach this crew any English terms at all. Like rabbet/”re-bate” or clamp/cramp. The first group insisted that some are clamps, and I insisted that you’re British dammit, call it a cramp.

One thing I was missing was old oak carvings, and the students took care of that. Joel, hewer extroidinaire, scouted out several churches and even arranged for us to get in them after 5 pm…130-odd steps up a circular staircase afforded us a heck of a view of somerset. One pulpit wasn’t oak, I said I wanted my money back. we saw three churches, carved pulpits, bench ends, a chest, and who knows what else. This pulpit is oak:

pulpit 1

Tim came down from County Durham, and lent me binocs and a good bird book…I had a simple little bird guide book with me…I saw some nice birds, some well, some fleeting. This’ll be the only time you’ll hear the word tit on this blog. As in blue tit, long tailed tit, willow tit, etc. I didn’t see a great tit. Then of course the day we drove over/down to Heathrow we saw several kites, much larger than I thought…musta seen 6 of them. No pictures, highway driving…

blue tit 2
juvy blue tit
blue tit
even better, juvy blue tit in oak

I was invited by Robin Wood to be part of Spoonfest, but that would have meant another week & 1/2 away from home. So, another time. Thanks to all who made my trip a success, especially the ones who waited at home. Why did it take me so long to get hip to Skype?

here’s what it looked like each night

More photos here:


gone again, back next week

bowl 15-02well, I was going to have some spoons for sale this week, but now I’m shuffling off to Lie-Nielsen for a box-carving class. Figuring I wouldn’t be around to pack & ship, so I’ll wait til next week. A couple of bowls too.

I did update the “make more room in the house” sale – – if anyone needs a graduation gift, a box for storing household junk, or something flat to pile things on…

chests with drawers, spoons, bowls, boxes – baskets and more – I hardly know which tools to pick up in the morning. Coming up on  a year since I went out on my own, woodworking-wise. what fun…thanks to all of you out there who help me make it happen.

desk box

Oaks beware!



the drawer

I found the nails. they were in the chest’s till; safely stored where I forgot them. After boring pilot holes, I nailed the sides to the front. In most cases, the nails go through the drawer side, into the end grain of the front. They sometimes go through the front, then to be covered by applied moldings. I could have done that, (these drawers will have applied moldings framing them), but the original is nailed this way.




But at the back, the nails go through the back into the end grain of the sides.

drawer assembly


Notice in this next photo, the drawer back closes the groove in the sides. So you have to open up a notch for the drawer to engage the runners.

drawer backstart with a saw, then a chisel.

notching the back

This one’s ready to drive the nails down.

back done



The bottoms run front-to-back. here’s one installed, fitting behind a rabbet in the drawer front, nailed up to the higher edges of the sides & back.



drawer bottom


Preliminary test drive of the drawer. Then I took it back out for the rest of the bottom boards.

test fit

There’s a false muntin glued onto the drawer front, then moldings surround the “two” drawer fronts. Here, the muntin is just placed there, when I glued it on, I made sure it was straight. Enough. (turned drawer pulls will fit into holes not-yet-bored in the drawer fronts. On to the next drawer.



I hope to post some spoons & boxes for sale tomorrow. we’ll see…

for the want of a nail…my drawers are stalled


Much of  the furniture I make requires nails; chests and boxes in particular. Most everything except chairs. I have written before about the nails I use –

It’s simple really – nice handmade furniture gets better with hand-made hardware.

hand-wrought nail
faceted head wrought nail

Somewhere around here is a small pile of hand-wrought nails that I hope to use to assemble the drawers for the chest I’m currently building. I just can’t find them right now. If I had any sense at all, I’d have learned years ago how to make my own. You can, with George Paré, another one of our Plymouth CRAFT friends. So Mothers, tell your children, not to do what I have done… learn to make your own nails.



drawers, pt 1

Finally got to working on the drawers for one of the Connecticut chest with drawers. Inside the chest are slats for the side-hung drawers to ride on. One’s installed here, and below it are the notches where the lower drawer will fit. (above the drawer runner is the groove for the chest floor. It’s easier to see what you’re doing if the floor is not yet installed.)




the drawer sides are thick, nearly 1″. Even thickness makes them easier to handle too. Here, I’m plowing the 3/8″ groove that will ride on the drawer slat/runner. About 1/2″ deep. I’ve got the drawer sides stacked on top of one another, making sure the top piece’s edge is bumped out towards me, for the plow plane’s fence to run…

plowing drawer sides



Next, I scribe the thickness of the side on the rear face of the drawer front. scribing rabbet

Then saw & split a rabbet in the drawer front. Clean it up and test fit it.


needs nails

The drawer side is not as tall as the drawer front. This rabbet is for the drawer bottoms to tuck behind.




Here is a test fit of the drawer side – the slat is in place, and I’ve hung the side on it & slide it in & out to see how it rides. It was at this point that I realized I’ve misplaced the handmade nails I’ll use to assemble this drawer. So I started making the 2nd drawer while I hope the nails miraculously re-appear .


test fit

Below is the “other one” – a dovetailed drawer. Similar time frame, late 17th century. Just another way of doing things.

the other one